Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/pc/text/spacedig/v15_0/v15no046.txt

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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 05:01:12
From: Space Digest maintainer <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Digest V15 #046
To: Space Digest Readers
Precedence: bulk


Space Digest                Wed, 29 Jul 92       Volume 15 : Issue 046

Today's Topics:
                     Calendar and Zodiak (3 msgs)
                   Clinton Space Position (3 msgs)
                                Delta
                        ETs and Radio (2 msgs)
            News: SSF, Space Medicine, Procurement Reform
      Russian/French Soyuz TM-15 mission launched to Mir station
                            Whales (SETI)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 03:07:00 GMT
From: This one works <[e-mail]>
Subject: Calendar and Zodiak
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Dave Jones) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Adam R. Brody ) writes:
>>I was just reading that the Earth precesses at a period of 26000 yrs.
>>This means that over the past 2000 years, we have precessed about
>>30 degrees or one month.  If the vernal equinox was in March back then,
>>how do we account for the missing (or extra) month in our calendar?
>>To reiterate, the vernal equinox is occurring 2000/26000 sooner than when
>>it occurred 2000 years ago in a solar system coordinate system.  In another
>>2000 years, will spring star in February, or do we account for precession
>>somehow in the calendar?
>
>This is an interesting question.  I just looked in my desktop database
>(actually the paperback 1991 Information Please Almanac, 10Mb equiv,
>$7.95 cheap) and on the subject of calendars it deals only with drift
>due to the solar year not being a whole number of solar days, and the
>various systems for correcting for that, adding days under various
>rules.
>
>This being the case, I will stick my neck out and say that the length
>of the solar day must be governed by three things: the Earths rotation
>period, its orbital speed (which causes a shift of the Sun's apparent
>position in the sky) and the rate of precession of the rotation axis.
>Thus a calendar based on the solar day must automatically be corrected
>for precession.
>
>I'll stick it out even further and assert that the sidereal day (which
>is not affected by the orbital speed) also incorporates precession.
>
>P.S.  Don't make those nooses too small: I've a size 17 neck.
>
>
>--

Here is what I know about the precession of the equinox.  the rate of precession
is 1/72 of a degree a year. This gives a rate of precession of 25920 years for
a full turn.  This rate is not constant due to the imbalances in the Earth's
mass distribution.  How this precession affects the seasons is thus:

Today in the Northern Hemisphere's summer, the earth is at the apogee of its
orbit around the sun.  As the precession continues on its merry way this will
be the main parameter that will change. In 12,900 years the northern hemisphere
will be in its summer when the Earth is at perigee. (I know these are the wrong
terms, I just don't remember the right ones for sun centered orbits).

This is why the calender will not change (I think) on the day of the year of the
equinox. It is interesting to note that the change is about 1 degree per
72 years.  This effects lattitude lines so maybe my first guess is incorrect.
I remember reading that the great pyramid was at the tropic of cancer when it
was built a few thousand years ago.

Maybe this info will help, no guarantees, no flames. :-)

Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville

Revive the Saturn Five!

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 92 13:56:14 GMT
From: Gary Coffman <ke4zv!gary>
Subject: Calendar and Zodiak
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Adam R. Brody ) writes:
>I was just reading that the Earth precesses at a period of 26000 yrs.
>This means that over the past 2000 years, we have precessed about
>30 degrees or one month.  If the vernal equinox was in March back then,
>how do we account for the missing (or extra) month in our calendar?
>To reiterate, the vernal equinox is occurring 2000/26000 sooner than when
>it occurred 2000 years ago in a solar system coordinate system.  In another
>2000 years, will spring star in February, or do we account for precession
>somehow in the calendar?

There wasn't a March 2000 years ago. The calender we use is a modern
invention of the 17th century. When the Gregorian calendar was rationalized,
we lost a week, and renters rejoiced and landlords cried. Precession is not
figured into the calendar. Unless someone rationalizes the calendar again,
the seasons will precess across the months. The Chinese calendar, and the
Jewish calendar now have the new year occurring on dates other than Jan 1.
That's because both calendars are old enough to have precessed a bit.
Besides, it's midwinter now, in the southern hemisphere. Which one stands
on it's head?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:33:37 GMT
From: "Adam R. Brody " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Calendar and Zodiak
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (George Hastings) writes:

>To make up the VERY small difference due to precession, as well
>as to adjust for the slowing of the Earth's rotation due to
>tidal drag of the oceans (caused by the moon's gravitation),
>from time to time they declare "leap-seconds" there was one
>this year.
>--

Has this really been going on consistently for 2000 years so that
there was never any noticeable jump?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:12:02 GMT
From: Doug Mohney <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clinton Space Position
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Doug Davey) writes:

>Stop Canadian Imperialism!  Yankee Go Home! :-)

*waves flag* It's Canuk go home! Suck a maple leaf!

   Previous signature chastized by Canadian Grad Student who flayed the United
   States as a bully from his bastion of free speech in Pittsburgh, PA.
                    Yes, fact IS stranger that fiction.
  -- >                  [e-mail]                        < --

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 92 13:49:07 EDT
From: "John F. Woods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clinton Space Position
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Doug Davey) writes:
>Henry, your technical postings are probably the best things in sci.space.*.
> However, a cross border political analysis is rude at best.

Especially when he has the gall to be dead on the mark.

>Stop Canadian Imperialism!

Keep that up and they'll take back the Canadarm.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:42:08 GMT
From: Garrett Wollman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clinton Space Position
Newsgroups: sci.space

[note followups!]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>However, I would respectfully ask that those who neither pay the taxes
>nor vote in the elections kindly refrain from posting politcal analyses
>of political statements from the USAian election campaign.

While I agree in principle with what Doug is saying here, I would like
to come to Henry's defense in that at least he is *aware* of what is
going on around here; I suspect that most USAnians---even smart ones
like the kind that tend to post to sci.space---would be hard pressed
to name what Brian Mulrooney, Jean Chr{\'e}tien, Audrey McLaughlin,
and Preston Manning have in common(*).  And I would submit that, with
reference to space exploration and development, the next president of
the United States will have quite a bit more effect than the next
Prime Minister of Canada.

Besides, now that Templeton has moved to California, who else will we
have to pick on?  :-)

-GAWollman


(*)They are the leaders of the four largest political parties in
Canada (Conservative [governing], Liberal, New Democratic, and Reform,
respectively).


--
   Garrett A. Wollman  = [e-mail] = UVM is welcome to my opinions
                       =    uvm-gen!wollman   =
   That's what being alive is all about.  No deity, no higher goal
   exists, than to bring joy to another person.    - Elf Sternberg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:07:18 GMT
From: Gary Hughes - VMS Development <[e-mail]>
Subject: Delta
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>You know what's funny here is that this idea was tried successfully about
>thirty years ago. The boosters that were paralled together were Redstones, and
>the vehicle produced was the Saturn I and IB. Very successful rockets, 28
>launches and *NO* failures.
>

Uh, not really. The S-I stage was built out of Redstone and Jupiter structural
parts (i.e. tanks), but propulsion, guidance and components to tie all this
together were all new.

The HL Delta idea was to cluster complete Delta 1st stage cores, functioning
independantly, i.e. if one engine shutdown early there would be no way to
transfer the propellants from that core and run the other engines longer to
compensate. Avoiding complexities like this would have kept the development
time/cost down.

gary

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 92 15:46:25 GMT
From: Chris Kostanick 806 1044 <chris@kbsw1>
Subject: ETs and Radio
Newsgroups: sci.space

We've been broadcasting for 70 or so years, but the early
efforts were low powered and at a very low frequency that didn't
make it out of the ionosphere very well. At stellar distances even
the DEW (Distant Early Warning) radar sets aren't all THAT bright.
You have to do something really amazing to be visible very far away.
I vote that any nearby (<30 ly) aliens haven't spotted us yet. That
may not be a bad thing. We can't build superdreadnoughts yet.

Chris Kostanick
"At 1200 hours I want you to bring every project the Galactic Patrol
can bring to bear on that dome!" (Quoted from memory)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 92 18:47:07 GMT
From: Ken Arromdee <[e-mail]>
Subject: ETs and Radio
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (russell wallace) writes:
>Given that for evolution of life to start, a simple living organism must
>come together from amino acids etc. by accident; and that for any
>complex structure to fall together by accident is extremely improbable;
>then it looks pretty much like the odds against life appearing on any
>one planet could easily be more than 10^1000 to 1 against, and the
>number of planets in the visible universe is only about 10^22.

This is based upon the false premise that evolution requires life to come
out about "by accident" in the sense you mean.
--
Hi! Ani mutacia shel virus .signature. Ha`atek oti letoch .signature shelcha!

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: [e-mail])

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 92 14:16:10 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: News: SSF, Space Medicine, Procurement Reform
Newsgroups: sci.space

{following exerpted from American Physical Society "What's New"
 newsletter, edited by Robert L. Park}
WHAT'S NEW, Friday, 24 July 1992                   Washington, DC

1. PHYSICISTS IN EUROPE, JAPAN AND CANADA OPPOSE SPACE STATION!
In an unprecedented joint statement issued today, the Presidents
of a group of major scientific societies, including The American
Physical Society, fired a blast at Space Station Freedom.  That's
hardly news; they do it every year.  But this time, the statement
was accompanied by the translation of a statement adopted by the
German Physical Society.  Like their American colleagues, German
physicists contend Space Station Freedom cannot be justified on
the basis of economics or science.  And it didn't stop with the
Germans!  The strongly worded German statement was endorsed by
the Executive Committee of the European Physical Society, and by
the Presidents of the Physical Society of Japan, the Canadian
Association of Physicists, and the American Physical Society;
Japan, Europe and Canada are "partners" with the United States in
the space station. Meanwhile, at a Capitol Hill press conference,
Rep. Howard Wolpe (D-MI) released a letter signed by 75 of the
most distinguished American space scientists; their letter
contends the space station cannot be justified on the basis of
its scientific usefulness or its importance to space exploration.

2. BUT PROPONENTS OF THE SPACE STATION HAVE NOT BEEN IDLE EITHER.
On Tuesday, NASA Administrator Daniel Goldin and NIH Director
Bernadine Healy signed a Memorandum of Understanding Regarding
Biomedical and Behavioral Research.  The matchmakers were none
other than Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) and Jake Garn (R-UT), the top
space station tub thumpers in the Senate.  The agreement, which
Mikulski hailed as "historic," is little more than a pledge to
cooperate, but it is meant to give credibility to claims that
space research will somehow lead to cures for disease on Earth.
At the Hill press conference, Rep. Durbin (D-IL) commented that,
"Cancer cures are the last refuge of budgetary scoundrels."


Subj:   Life Science Results News - 2

RELEASE: 92-125   UNEXPECTED RESULTS FROM LIFE SCIENCES MISSION
   Scientists report dramatic changes from space travel in some of
the body's systems, with a resiliency in others -- all of which
affect long stays in space and medical research on Earth.  These
results are from the Spacelab Life Sciences-1 (SLS-1) mission,
flown aboard Space Shuttle Columbia in June 1991.
   "Taken together, these results show the need for a laboratory
in space to complement the traditional laboratory on Earth.  This
is vital in understanding how the human body works, whether it is
in space or on Earth," says Dr. Ronald White, chief scientist of
NASA's Life Sciences Division.
   Four principal investigators from the SLS-1 mission report key
findings in the areas of cardiovascular (heart and lungs),
musculoskeletal (muscles and bones) and neurovestibular (inner
ear/brain) physiology.

CARDIOVASCULAR
   Space travel presents a drastic change in working conditions to
the heart and lungs, according to Dr. C. Gunnar Blomqvist, a
cardiologist from the University of Texas Health Science Center in
Dallas.
   Often astronauts just returning from space have difficulty
maintaining normal blood pressure and blood flow when standing.
One SLS-1 experiment using a catheter inserted preflight into an
arm vein of an astronaut and later moved nearer to the heart shows
the astronaut experienced much more rapid fall in central blood
pressure than was predicted.
   In another area of cardiovascular research, it was found that
exposure to space impairs an astronaut's pressure regulating
reflexes, called baroreflexes, according to Dr. Dwain L. Eckberg
of the Hunter Holmes McGurie Department of Veterans Affairs
Medical Center and the Medical College of Virginia,.
   A closely fitting neck collar (similar to a whip-lash collar)
was used on astronauts during the SLS-1 mission to record two
blood pressure sensing areas located in the neck.
   By the eighth day of flight, astronauts had significantly
faster resting heart rates, less maximum change of heart rate per
unit of neck pressure change and a smaller range of heart rate
responses.  These changes occurred in all astronauts studied.  The
changes that developed were large and statistically significant.
   These results validated findings obtained on Earth.  They were
based on predictions that Dr. Eckberg made by studying subjects
after prolonged bedrest.
   This validation can lead to important studies in clinical
medicine because studying astronauts before and after flight or by
studying healthy people before and after bedrest, provide insights
into medical problems here on Earth.

NERVOUS SYSTEM
   In another SLS-1 experiment, there is clear evidence that the
number of structures (synapses) used to communicate between the
cells of the inner ear's gravity detecting organ and the central
nervous system increase greatly during space flight, but not in
size.  Therefore, these systems should be able to adapt to the
differing gravitational environments of space, the moon and Mars,
according to Dr. Muriel D. Ross, a neuroanatomist from NASA's Ames
Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif.
   Further research in this area should also shed light on the
broader topics of memory and learning in neural tissue and on
clinical diseases of the inner ear.
Muscles
   Following space flight, there is a significant and dramatic
reduction in the size of all muscles needed for standing and
moving, according to Dr. Kenneth M. Baldwin, an exercise and
muscle physiologist from the College of Medicine at the University
of California, Irvine.
   "Also, there is a reduced capacity of muscles to burn fat for
energy production," says Dr. Baldwin.  "In addition, this
experiment has verified that muscles that suport the body when we
walk around on Earth change their nature in space because they are
not needed."
   Taken together, these findings suggest that properties of the
skeletal muscle system, the largest organ system of the body, are
greatly altered during space flight.

Subj:   Life Science Results News - 1

RELEASE:  92-124 SLS-1 MISSION RESULTS: HOW LIFE ADAPTS TO SPACE
   Human, plant and animal cells exposed to the microgravity of
space for only a few days show changes in function and structure,
according to NASA scientists.
   Although preliminary, the results of the recent life sciences
research on the space shuttle suggest alterations in metabolism,
immune cell function, cell division and cell attachment.
   "This type of research is important not only in helping us
understand how life adapts to the weightlessness of space, but
also in increasing our knowledge of basic cell function and thus
contribute to the well-being of life on Earth," said Dr. Thora
Halstead, Manager of NASA's Space Biology Program.
   Dr. Gerald Sonnenfeld of the University of Louisville,
Kentucky, reports that after nine days in space, human immune
cells failed to differentiate into mature effector cells.  The
results of his investigation into how the stress of space flight
affects immune system cells suggest that the stress of space
flight can alter normal metabolic activities and important aspects
of immune cell function.
   "The failure of the body to produce mature, fully
differentiated cells in space may lead to health problems,
including impaired healing abilities and increased risk of
infection," he said.
   "Bone-forming cells exposed to microgravity also show changes,"
said Dr. Emily Morey-Holton of NASA's Ames Research Center,
Moffett Field, Calif.  Her study of how exposure to microgravity
changes the size, shape and cellular components of rat bone cells
revealed a significant number of floating, dead bone-forming
cells.
   "Bone cells die if they can't attach to something," Morey-
Holton said.  "That we found so many unattached, dead cells may
indicate that gravity is required to show the cells where to
attach.  This finding could be significant since many biological
processes, both in single cells and in multicelled organisms,
depend on cell attachment and recognition processes."
   She added that the attached bone cells, although healthy,
showed no signs of producing mineral.  "It may be that bone cells
don't need to form mineral to support themselves in microgravity,"
she said.
   Morey-Holton and Sonnenfeld both used a novel computerized cell
culture incubator (the Space Tissue Loss Module) to keep their
cultures alive.  The module, developed by Dr. William Weismann of
the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research in Washington, D.C.,
was designed specifically for studying the metabolic activities of
cells in space.
   "The successful operation of the STL Module signified a
landmark technological achievement in our ability to study cell
functions during space flight," Halstead said.
   Plant cells also respond to microgravity, according to Dr.
Abraham Krikorian of the State University of New York at Stony
Brook.  "There is increasing evidence that cells in the roots of
plants subjected to space flight undergo major changes in their
cell division profile, even after as few as four days in space,"
he said.
   "One particularly important consideration is that cells be able
to divide efficiently and to partition their genetic information
with high fidelity," he said.  "In short, they have to get their
signals straight and to process them accurately."
   He noted that in one plant (Haplopappus gracilis) that has only
four chromosomes, overall root production was significantly faster
under space flight conditions.  He also said that changes in

chromosomes were found in up to one-third of the cells that flew
in space.
   Dr. Pauline J. Duke of the University of Texas Health Science
Center in Houston also found differences between mouse bone cells
developed in space and on the ground.  She said the cells in
microgravity showed changes in attachment.
   "The surfaces of flight cells were smoother than those of
ground- based controls, indicating that matrix production or
secretion is altered during space flight, probably as a direct
result of microgravity exposure," she said.  "Matrix forms the
basic structure of bone."
   Dukes experiment, the first culture of skeletal cells in space,
was designed to determine whether cells sensitive to gravitational
changes in the whole animal and in organ culture retained that
sensitivity in cell culture.
   Although Halstead is pleased with the results of these studies,
she said there is still much to learn.  "We are just beginning to
understand how cells function in space," she said.
   "A more thorough understanding will come only after much more
research.  We are looking to Space Station Freedom to give us the
opportunities to conduct the long-term studies that ultimately may

hold the key to this basic component of life," she said.
   The results of these studies will be reported Monday, July 27,
1992, at a workshop on Cellular Response to Microgravity as part
of the Fifth International Congress on Cell Biology in Madrid,
Spain.


Subj:   Goldin's Speech

RELEASE 92-123
GOLDIN OUTLINES NASA PROCUREMENT REFORM
   NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin today announced a series of
procurement reforms to make NASA the model of excellence for the
Federal Government and ensure Americans receive the very best
value for their tax dollar.
   "Through a focus on the customer, empowerment, teamwork with
our partners in industry, accountability and diversity, we can
achieve our goal and serve as a beacon to others," Goldin said in
a speech to the National Contract Management Association in Los
Angeles.
   Goldin said reforms in NASA's procurement process are necessary
because 90 percent of its budget is spent through contracts.
   "We must continue to give the American people technical
advances, but we must also give them 'best' value for their tax
dollar," Goldin said.
   "In the future, NASA will not tolerate 300 percent cost
overruns, defective spacecraft hardware or the failure to follow
work instructions that protect government furnished hardware,"
Goldin said.
   "Nor will we tolerate schedule slippages," Goldin said.  "We
can't keep letting months turn into years and years into decades."
   According to Goldin, the current procurement system teaches
people to fear making any mistake.
   "Everyone involved in the acquisition process is swimming in
certifications," Goldin said.  "Instead, we should be encouraging
innovation, creativity and efficiency."
   Goldin said NASA and contractor personnel will never achieve
excellence if they are not given clear lines of responsibility and
held accountable for their decisions.
   Major changes in the procurement process include:
   o New contracts will be awarded to companies that have
demonstrated they are accountable by delivering quality systems
that meet cost schedule and technical requirements; and
   o The amount of the award fee earned will be determined by the
end result, namely the quality, timeliness and cost of what is
delivered;
   o Contractors will be given greater responsibility for success
of a program, and should be given the opportunity for increased
award fee if they hold to schedule, keep the program within cost
estimates and deliver a satisfactory product.

Total Quality Management
   To determine contractor performance, Goldin said NASA will soon
establish a joint NASA-Industry team to develop a source of
"metrics" or measurements.
   "Once the metrics are established, NASA will publish the
results on a generic basis, without identifying specific
contractors.  On a semi-annual basis, we will notify each CEO
where their company stands," Goldin said.

Cultural Diversity
   Finally, Goldin said NASA will aggressively promote cultural
diversity in the work place and to reaching its goal for Small and
Disadvantaged Business (SDB) contracts.
   "As Administrator of NASA, I have made a personal commitment to
increasing cultural diversity in the workplace and to increasing
the contracting opportunities for small and disadvantaged
contracts," Goldin said.
   Goldin said NASA had implemented a range of initiatives to
increase the number of SDB contracts, including:
   o SDB considerations are part of NASA's earliest procurement
planning, and are emphasized in acquisition strategy meetings or
in procurement plans; and
   o In many of NASA's large prime contracts, NASA is establishing
firm percentages of the effort to be subcontracted to SDBs and
will reward those contractors with special incentive fees when
they exceed the SDB requirement.
   "Small and disadvantaged businesses need assistance above and
beyond set-asides," Goldin said.
   "In the coming months we will be setting up a new 'minority
business resource advisory committee' in NASA to help us bring
more SDB contractors into the NASA family," Goldin said.
   "Each of us as professionals and as citizens has an obligation
to help overcome the barriers that divide us as a nation," Goldin
said.
   "The Los Angeles riots were visual proof that we must redouble
our efforts to help our minority citizens turn their dreams into
realities," Goldin said.

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 92 14:53:28 GMT
From: Jen Schacher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Russian/French Soyuz TM-15 mission launched to Mir station
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Glenn Chapman) writes:
>     The Russian/French Soyuz TM-15 mission to the Mir space station was
>launched today (July 27). Onboard this  flight were cosmonauts Anatoli
>Solovyov and (Soyuz TM-5 to Mir June '88 for 9 days and Soyuz TM-9 to Mir in
>Feb '90 for 180 days) Sergei Avdeyev (first mission) from CIS (Commonwealth
>of Independent States) plus Frenchman Michel Tognini (also first flight).
>The crew will dock with the Mir complex on July 29th to join cosmonauts
>Alexander Viktorenko and Alexander Kaleri, who are in their 5th month in
>space (since Mar. 17th).

What are the physical effects, if any, of being in space for so long?
Are the men able to function normally upon return to Earth, or
can they not handle the increase in gravity?

Jen Schacher
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 10:59:05 CDT
From: "Walker on Earth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Whales (SETI)

Whoa, hold on here!  One cannot be considered intelligent without
being able to comprehend certain types of mathematics, such as
the concept of number?  Suppose(we won't do this in real life)
that we separate at birth a human child from all others of his
kind.  We're not cruel; he receives adequate care by whatever means
you wish to hypothesize- robots for instance.  I don't think our
young hero will be developing the concept of number, let alone add-
ition, subtraction, etc. anytime in the foreseeable future.  How
about raising 47 babies together, again with no other human contact.
How long will it take the tribe to get past onomonopieatic grunts
and handwaving to a true language with grammar and syntax?  One
generation?  Two?  Twenty?

I am trying to make the point with these examples that ideas, even
basic ones, and intelligence are two separate phenomena, though of
course one must have intelligence to comprehend ideas.  The objection
to cetacean intelligence then seems to be that none of the species
of this order ever demonstrate any ideas that we regard as basic to
the application of intelligence.  One may argue that if whales have a
human order of intelligence, then they should have come up with these
(to us) elementary ideas thousands if not millions of years ago.  So
why haven't they?

My two cents:  what if they have a language at least as expressive as
ours, but it is almost entirely based on signs instead of symbols.
An analogy for how they may communicate amongst themselves would be
to liken it to human beings invested with a video screen in their
chests- instead of crying out "Danger!! Lions sighted in the tall
grass to the north!" we would simply display the pertinent scene.  of
course, since they are more acoustically talented than we are, I am
assigning this function to their echo-location abilities.  Instead of
an arbitrary pattern of sound to designate the "word" "smelt", they
may be able to simply sign for it by replicating the "sound" a smelt
makes.

Given the number of "nouns" in the sea, such a language could be very
complex, and yet be almost entirely devoid of any symbological descrip-
tion of any event.  How would these beasts "think" then?  Well, the
above is just my two cents, but if it is true, and if nobody can come
up with a plausible _testable_ mechanism for this kind of thought, then
the subject of whale intelligence is still moot.


                                            Just Idly Speculating,



                                                   Walker on Earth

------------------------------

End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 046
------------------------------